AnaElsa Aviles and Mimi LaRaque – El Salvador and Haiti Voices on Social Justice

Dr. Dave:

Hello and welcome to the Knowledge Share with Dr. Dave podcast. This is Dr. Dave Cornelius, your host. The conversation today is with AnaElsa and Mimi, and we're going to learn more about their social justice experiences. Mimi and Elsa, take one minute to describe who you are, your role, and let's learn a little bit about you. You guys can do rock, paper, scissors to see who wants to go first too.

Mimi:

That's okay. Ana, you go first.

AnaElsa:

All right. So, I am an Organization Development Practitioner, I am also a coach, a Project Management Professional, and I am also a woman of color and an immigrant. My story is a typical story, working family, raised in Washington, DC. I'm now working in the healthcare industry in New York, and I have been active in supporting Agile for Humanity in the past few months, so I'm excited to be here.

Dr. Dave:

Welcome.

Mimi:

Great. I am Mimi, and I am, by trade, a budget manager. I'm also a woman of color and an immigrant. I have over 20 years of experience, and I am an educator, also a lecturer. And I could say I am very, in my community and in other communities, as an immigrant from where I came from, I'm from Haiti, so I do a lot of social justice work in that area. I also have a charity, and we'll talk about that later, but that's basically who I am.

Dr. Dave:

Yeah. So, and AnaElsa, where are you from? I know Mimi Larock said she's from Haiti.

AnaElsa:

Yeah. So I was born in El Salvador, and I was raised in Washington, DC, as I said, and I'm also a social justice advocate. I've been working with many, many labor organizations over the past 20 years, doing social justice work, and now have transitioned into a consulting role doing healthcare improvement.

Dr. Dave:

Excellent. So what's the backstory about how you two met? I haven't heard the story how you two met sorry, so I wanted to capture that early.

AnaElsa:

I'll let Mimi start.

Mimi:

I am an educator and I teach Project Management classes, I teach Agile classes. So AnaElsa attended one of my classes and that was the connection, and then we've stayed in touch since.

AnaElsa:

After I passed my PMP exam.

Dr. Dave:

Yeah. That's a tough exam.

Mimi:

Yeah.

AnaElsa:

Mimi made it a point to always track our progress until we passed.

Mimi:

Yeah.

AnaElsa:

She was a great supporter and a great mentor.

Mimi:

Thank you.

Dr. Dave:

Most excellent. So when you think of social justice in your work community or family, what is one experience that comes to mind for you?

AnaElsa:

So I'll share mine, these past few weeks have been quite a period of reflection. I grew up in Washington, DC, as I said, and one incident in my family involved the police brutality that my older brother experienced. And so he was victimized, and he filed a complaint. He successfully won the claim. And he later became a well-recognized community activist for social and economic justice for the Latino community in Washington, DC. So he emerged as a leader and a spokesperson for the community in the aftermath of a three-day riot that happened in the Mount Pleasant neighborhood in Washington, DC. So that inspired me, over the years, to become an advocate myself. And we will be commemorating that incident on May 5th, it will be the 30th anniversary of that incident, so he's now organizing a virtual community dialogue.

Dr. Dave:

We're going to have some Cinco de Mayo stuff going on since it's May 5th.

AnaElsa:

Well, it actually happened on May 5th of 1991, so...

Dr. Dave:

Wow.

Mimi:

Oh, okay, okay.

AnaElsa:

Yeah, but just by coincidence.

Mimi:

Right, right, right.

AnaElsa:

Anyway, so that's one family story that's been on my mind recently, and also in the aftermath of what's been happening around the country, particularly in the Black community. So we still have a long way to go, in my view, as it relates to law enforcement and relations with the community.

Dr. Dave:

Yeah.

Mimi:

I second that motion. Definitely, we have a long way to go. Personally, myself, as a woman of color, and so, let me backtrack a little bit. So my parents immigrated here in the 70's. I was 14 when we first came to this country, so I went to high school and college here in Brooklyn. So after I got married, we moved to New Jersey. So I've worked on Wall Street, my first job was brokerage organization, right? So when I first started out, so my major, my undergrad is in finance. So when I first started out, I worked in several brokerage organizations.

And honestly, I'm going to see how I can phrase this, so when you are from a different culture sometimes you take what you grew up with, and then when you come in a different environment, so I can tell you for myself and some of my siblings, and also some cousins and other relatives, when I came to this country, I never looked at myself as a Black person. I was a human being. Because I grew up in a Black, I had a Black First Lady, so I had a Black President, so a lot of things for me really was an eye-opener. So things I've had to learn.

So now I have to navigate differently, because when you grow up in an environment your navigation is, "Well, I just have to get a good education. If I get a good education, I can live anywhere I want, I can do whatever I want." So that's how I grew up until I was 14. Now when I came to this country, we immigrated, so all of us came together because there was such a thing as legal immigration, because a lot of people, I think, and that's another education with immigration that needs to be had, right?

People don't realize that there is such a thing, or there used to be such a thing, as legal immigration. So meaning that you stay in your country, all the work is done, and then you come here, from the first day you come here, you are here legally. So not every immigrant has the same story. And I think that's another part of it that is missing in the equation. And we all take different things from us, right? So, I always thought there was some inequality, meaning that people of color are treated completely, totally different, whether it's a job interview, whether you yourself have had the experience, where you always know somebody or many people who have the experience, right?

So for me, when I think of the two words, social justice, I don't look at it as all of us have to be... I think people should be judged by who they are. And now there's, I'm going to put it, Martin Luther King says not by the color of their skin, but I think it has gotten progressively worse. It's not color of skin anymore. It's gender, it's country of origin, it's somebody like me, for example.

When I went to get my second shot, I don't know if I told you that. I was sitting next to somebody else, a white person, right? And they were talking, and I don't know why they didn't pick up my accent, and he was mentioning immigrants and things like that. Like not saying a good thing, because you know, we've been polarized. I think the last four years have really gotten opened like a can of worms.

To me, I feel like the last four years, I've never felt so... I don't know how I can put this. Being someone who came to this country at 14 years old and worked, many places, I became an IT project manager, work mostly with white males. I've never felt so... for lack of a better word, I'm going to say, so Black in this country, over the last four years. That has been my experience.

Dr. Dave:

Okay.

Mimi:

Prior to that, I walk in a room, so my thinking is so I'm Black. So, if I'm the only Black person there, so I never really paid much attention to it. But I think over the last four years, I think because of what has been happening in this country, it has made even people like me be a little bit more conscious of the fact that the double standard is not even doubled, it's tripled, it's quadrupled, for some, then others. I think I mentioned that to you, AnaElsa, before, I think that America, we are going through,

Mimi:

Right now, in my opinion, awakening and reckoning. The awakening is that there's a can of worms. All of those things, they were always there. They just never ... I'm going to give you an example. For example, someone like me, you go back to your business, you go to school, you get your degree, you're able to buy a nice home, you got a good job. You're not really thinking about it every day even though that I've been involved in a lot of communities to say, "Get an education, do this, do that." But when those things happen, and then you, yourself, you start thinking about it more than you were. Then, at that point, you realize that it's not that it was never there. I think we became complacent for a while and then all of a sudden, now everything went down.

Dr. Dave:

I just think we're dealing with a certain level of tribalism. I want to pivot and start talking about what are some of the recent learning experience or projects, if any, that support your commitment to social justice and engaging people in that journey? Just think about that question and if we could just really focus around that. What comes to mind for you?

AnaElsa:

I was just going to say, one of the things that I've done given the environment that we're in, given, you said tribalism. The cultural and racial divide, I think that has been very obvious in our country, really made me think about what is it that we really want to do around racial equity. I enrolled in a eight week intensive workshop title Re-imagining Racial Equity. That has really opened up my eyes also in terms of what do we need to do individually to really be fully aware of embracing our own culture, but also embracing other cultures, other differences. I also went ahead and started pursuing my diversity equity and inclusion certification. I hope to be able to bring some impact by supporting that work or integrating that work into my profession as a practitioner and I hope to be able to facilitate racial equity workshops, helping to facilitate much needed dialogue around those issues. Those are some things I would highlight in terms of my own learning experiences.

Dr. Dave:

Mimi, the same thing for you. Let's talk about some recent learning experiences or projects, if any, that support your commitment to social justice and how you're engaging others in that journey.

Mimi:

I was involved a lot in the voting process, the presidential. I participated with a lot of virtual events. I did phone calls every Saturday, different areas. Then, I also engaged a lot of people and had to explain to them the purpose where the power at this point, our power, is only in the voting. I did a lot of work in 2020 around the voting process. Because for me, myself, I had to understand so what I did is that I went back and I read a few books because I wanted to understand everything so I have to backtrack. I read a few books to understand why people were so discouraged, why people failed. Because I had to convince so many people. I would be talking to them. I would have a list of 20 questions and I would have to convince them, "This is why you need to go out and do this. You're going to do it"

I did more than, I would say, a good 16-weeks making calls to three times a week, in the evening, on Saturdays also, convincing people to go out there and vote. It wasn't only in New Jersey where I live. It was also, I did volunteer for the areas. That's the work that I did virtually.

Dr. Dave:

I mean, that's excellent because I know protest is important, but voting to make policy changes is equally as important for us to move forward. But when we think about Latinx, women of color, we're so underrepresented in the technology industry. What do you think is the cause of that deficit? I can't even say just women in general, but I think even more pronounced as the Latinx and women of color are just so underrepresented in that space.

Mimi:

Go ahead.

Dr. Dave:

I was just going to say, in terms of Latinx, I, I believe that it starts from a very early age, in terms of the messages that young women, depending on the families that they come from, the communities that they live in, there has to be more of an intentional marketing or promoting these opportunities. Because once young women's hit a certain age, they could have already made up their mind in terms of the field. Learning enough about those opportunities early on is key, but also having women who can mentor them. I just think we still have a lot of work. I mean, there's some progress being made, but I don't think it's across the country. There's something happening, some improvements happening in California, but they haven't reached all the way across the south or the west coast. Much work to be done.

Mimi:

I think it's two fold because being that I'm from the Caribbean, I can see that, as you were saying, Ana Elsa, there's got to be an educational, so that needs to be made. I think the under representation has two folds in it. I think we are not pursuing it as much as ... I think that's what you want to say also Ana Elsa, right? Pursuing it as much as we should. I know for a fact, a lot of people of color are coming from Nigeria and coming here and want visa for big tech positions.

I think here, I'm talking about in America, we need to do a better job. Parents can do it. It's not only educators. Parents can do it. People like me can do it. For example, every time I get an opportunity, I always, and I look for the opportunity to encourage the young ones to get into certain fields, to tell them don't take the easy road. When you go to college, don't just go major in something, because you know it's not going to be hard. A lot of times you have to do what's hard in order for you to really have the life that you think you're going to have. I think all of us should do that.

All of us should take an opportunity and not just leave it to the schools to tell them, "This is what you can major in." Every opportunity we get, we should tell kids, "You can be a scientist. You can do this, you can do that." I see it in my community because I'm from the Caribbean. You understand what I'm saying? I see it in my community but I think we have more work that we need to do.

AnaElsa:

Dr. Dave, if I could add, I think more public and private partnerships because I do think that there has to be more of that to also foster this message. Because I think we have to think about the jobs of the future as well. As a society, I think, putting more women of color, Latinx, or any type of woman of color at the top so people can also say, "Oh, I can get there." But there has to be that partnership also.

Dr. Dave:

I would totally agree with that in terms of us being able to be the faces. That's why we're having this conversation. Us being able to be the faces that says, "Okay, this is possible." We noticed that when we had Barack Obama becomes the first black president of the United States, that totally changed the trajectory and even the way people saw themselves, because we really needed to see what that looks like for us and what's possible.

Let's talk about a few actions that you are personally taking to improve opportunities for black indigenous and people of color, we call them BIPAC, in your community. I normally would say in the ABILE community, but if you don't live in the AGILE community, in your community. Mimi, go ahead. Why don't you start first?

Mimi:

I do a lot of mentorship in areas that I believe or I feel are disproportionately or economically or socially, I go in those areas and I mentor a lot of girls. It's not that I wouldn't mentor boys because I think we need to do it for both. Actually, you know what I'm saying, I think we need to do it for both because we are all human beings. I do a lot of that. I help them as far as making sure that they continue in school when high school is over, making sure that you go talk to your principal, especially in areas where parents don't really know

Mimi:

... How to go. I was amazed of the fact that maybe, I'll give you an example of one girl, she's graduating high school, bright. Her guidance counselors, or her parents, right? Don't know how to go around, go to the school, figure out what they need, figuring out when is the time for them to fill out the application for college and things like that. So she goes to the guidance counselor and the guidance counselor said, "Oh, well, you don't need to go to college. You can just go and learn how to do hair." There I come. There I come, I say, "Excuse me." There I come and I said, "Absolutely not. You're a bright girl. You are going to go, fill out an application and then you are going to go to college."

First of all, I said, "Do you want to go?" "Yes, absolutely." They didn't know how to go around it. Also, myself, I can't go as an advocate for her at the school. So what I did is that I said, "Okay, we're going to sit down together, with her parents' permission, right? Her mom's permission. Sat them together, we fill an application. I said, "Do you not have money for the application? The worry about it. We'll find the money and then fill out the application." She's now in college. So I do a lot of that work because I think, I absolutely believe in my core, I don't know how you guys feel, that education is going to have to be one of those things that we have to zero in in. In order for us to overcome a lot of other things. Because I feel that in my core. Because I think one of the worst thing that happened, I think after the emancipation, is that black people never had the opportunity to get an education. Do you know? I was-

Dr. Dave:

I would agree.

Mimi:

Yeah. I was watching Martin Luther King in one of his speech. He was talking about saying, "Oh, hold yourself by your bootstraps." If you don't have bootstraps, how are you going to hold yourself? You can't. Then when I look at other countries like my country, like El Salvador, or you look at countries like Africa, people don't have money, they're all in poverty, but they know the value of education. I think that got lost somewhere because of the fact that that was taken away.

Dr. Dave:

Yeah. I think we have an opportunity to be advocates in our community because if you have parents who have not been exposed or may not know. We have an opportunity as professionals, as advocates for others to contribute to that community. I love what you're doing, so keep on keeping on, and keep doing it. It's beautiful.

Mimi:

You should see. I latch on whenever I see a young kid, I'm like...

AnaElsa:

The other thing I promote in my case with my own family and people that I know, or even hear in New York is take advantage of your bilingual skills, right? Because I was lucky enough to become fully bilingual. I can read, write, speak English, Spanish. I learned a third language, which I'm not as fluent, but I can understand Portuguese. So I think that that also makes you more marketable, and mentoring young people who grew up in bilingual households is very important to embrace that skill and master it.

Dr. Dave:

That's amazing. Mimi, I grew up in the West Indies, so I know coming from Haiti that you speak French as well.

Mimi:

Yeah. I speak fluent French. French. I speak [inaudible 00:26:06]. Yeah.

Dr. Dave:

So you speak French and Patois.

Mimi:

Yes. I speak French and Patois, yes.

Dr. Dave:

Okay. Perfect. Awesome. So look, what's the most significant change you would like to see to support BIPOC and non BIPOC integration, right? Because we can't just do this by ourselves. It takes a village. It takes all of us coming together, working toward a common goal of humanity, right? I mean, that's where we need to get to. So let's start with you Ana-Elsa. What are those changes you would like to see?

AnaElsa:

Well, I think first we have to really be intentional about the much needed dialogue around racial and cultural differences in this country. Bridging that divide to me, it's one of those important conversations, but also not just those kinds of things and the policies around healthcare disparities. Many other disparities, but around the pandemic right now, it's been pretty evident that many, many lives could have been saved. The majority of those lives that were lost were people of color, black brown. I know that's definitely a big case here in New York. So I do think that bridging that gap around our understanding, but also embracing our differences and our similarities, having a better understanding of the multi-generational differences because now many companies are finding themselves also, you essentially have five generations in the workplace still. From the recent young people entering the workforce to the ones that are about to retire.

So I would like to see a paradigm shift around progressive policies, but also I would like to address the civic participation policies and the practices, that what's going on right now in terms of the attacks of voter suppression in particular. So many states that are passing legislation that is preventing people, particularly people of color, the African-American community in particular. So I think that to me, would help address some of the integration issues between people of color and non people of color.

Mimi:

Before we have, we can have any policies, right? We have to make sure that we have the right people who have the power to enact those policies. So that's where voting comes from. That's another area, I think. We can't have policy unless we have the right person there for that policy. So that's a conversation, I think that should also take place. We can talk about, let's have this policy, let's have that policy, but can we have it if we don't have the right people in place? Look what's happening now. This is exactly the problem we have now, right?

So almost everything that, it's like, we have gridlock in the government right now. So I think that education has to be done also for people to understand when you're voting, you're not just voting for the President, but you need to do those also because without those people, that's one problem, we're not going to have any policies that is going to work for the majority of the country. So that's the conversation that needs to... Because that has happened before you can have those policies in place.

Dr. Dave:

Those are excellent points. But I want us to start to think about vision because if we could align on vision, based on our own humanity needs, then maybe we could come along and deal with what's common policies, right? Because oftentimes we still in a tribalism. One tribe wants this and the other tribe wants this, but our human needs are the same, right? I don't care what shade of color you are, what gender you are, our human needs are the same, right? We need shelter, we need food, we need belonging, those are all common things that we all need. Let's talk about what would diversity, equity, inclusion and belonging? Let's say we had this utopia, all right? This future world, this vision that we'd like to have.

If we had a world that has diversity, equity, inclusion, and belonging, what would that look like, right? In terms of folks starting with a vision for our humanity. Then we can worry about the nuances of, who likes what version of bread versus the other, right? Because that's what it comes down to oftentimes. So let me get some insights from both of you on what that would look like.

Mimi:

I would say first would be everyone being able to get an education, right? Universal education, I mean really in the sense of universal education. For example, it doesn't matter what area or neighborhood that you live, your school is not dilapidated. You're going to get enough books, right? You have enough teachers, that's one, right? Some kind of a universal healthcare, because part of the problems we have now is we can see it happening, right? So that's another one. Then also for people to be able to go out and not being judged or not being victimized because of the color of their skin, or also beyond the color of their skin, depending on what level you're in, anything can happen. So for me, that would be like, people are not really being judged by, you're not judged by where you live, you're not judged by the color of your skin.

Mimi:

You're not judged by your gender, and for me, that would be utopia. So if I go to, let's say, somewhere in New York, I'll use new Jersey, right? If I'm in Newark, I don't know if you guys are familiar with Newark, New Jersey, right?

Dr. Dave:

Somewhat, yeah. I've been there a few times.

Mimi:

Yeah so if I'm in Newark, I don't want to be scared. I shouldn't be scared. Oh my gosh, I'm in Newark and then now the police car is behind me. Utopia would look like this. Okay, so I'm in Newark. It doesn't matter whether I'm in Newark or in the suburb because you have two things that can happen. So maybe sometimes if you stop in the suburb and you live in the suburbs, nothing really happens, right? But now you have to deal with two things, you are a woman of color, you're a person of color, I shouldn't say woman. You're a person of color and then you are in that environment. So those things need to stop. It shouldn't matter what color you are, what area you live in, or what area you're driving in. Yeah, you stop and then they ask you questions, be done with it, and then you're treated just like somebody else. That's the few things that I would like to see.

Dr. Dave:

Okay.

AnaElsa:

So to build on what Mimi said, I would say, related to the education part, I think it's critical for people really know the history of this country. And there are many many parts of the U.S. history that have been whitewashed and I think it's time for everyone to have a real understanding of what has really brought us to where we are. So by that, I mean white supremacy culture, white supremacy institutions, practices, policies that clearly need to be changed, but also putting an end to discriminatory practices in the workplace, achieving pay equity for women. To me, that's very important. And getting back to the voter suppression trend that we're seeing now.

So, one of the areas that I've been always curious is how do we, as a country allow re-entry citizens regain the right to vote and the right to really upgrade their skills so that they can enter society and become independent and contributing citizens of the country, as well. Because there's a huge population that is incarcerated. And so that, to me, is something where I, for example, as a coach, I could see myself coaching women who want to re-enter the workforce. There's so many things we could do as a society and as practitioners and as advocates for social justice. I appreciate you asking us to reimagine a new world, right? Because I think there is hope.

Mimi:

Yeah. That's why it's going to be at the country level, group level, community level, and individual level. Because some of the work, I think, if we are waiting to have utopia or a better world, we are not going to be able to contribute. I think a lot of things is going to have to be done also at the individual level. As much as you can, you contribute until we get the new policy, you know what I'm saying? So I know you were talking about the voter suppression thing, but if you look at the voters, where is it happening? The people who are put in office. Can we change that tomorrow, no. But then we can educate people to understand the next time they vote, this is why you cannot do this, because that's what can happen. That's the problem we're having now, right?

We can't change a lot of things right away. Look how long it's taken. This is 2021. I will be honest with you guys, I was completely shocked by what happened over the last four years. Completely, totally, I can't even express, I can't even express it. And it's not just that what happened was new, you know what I mean? It was always there. I guess people like me, I was like, no, that's not going to happen here. No, not that guy. No, there's just no way. And then boom. Completely shocked.

Dr. Dave:

Yeah. I want to say, I think we've all [laughing 00:38:10], I'm laughing about it, but we've all been shocked by what has taken place, right? It's really tough. So look, thank you so much for your insights today. Thank you for sharing your experiences Mimi, AnaElsa. I really appreciate you bringing your voices and bringing all of who you are to this conversation, because I think it's essential that we have many voices, many experiences expressing where we are today and where we need to go in the future. So let me close and say thank you for listening to the KnolShare with Dr. Dave Podcast. I hope this learning experience would also prompt you to take and seek more and discover how you can contribute to positive experiences for BIPOC lives. Look, it really doesn't take a lot. We have to tap into our humanity to see what's possible.

So here's a few places that you can find this recording. You'll find the recording at Agile for Humanity Podcast at KnolShare with Dr. Dave on iTunes, Google Play, and Spotify, but they'll also be on several different websites. So on the agilealliance.org website, the knosharewithdrdave.com website, grokshare.com, knolshare.org, and our favorite space where AnaElsa and I hang out is the agileforhumanity.org website. And so these are different areas that you could find,

 

I want to just give attribution to the music that you'll hear, the intro and the outro of this is written by my niece, Kayanna Brow-Hendrickson.

This podcast is also copywritten 2021 by KnolShare and Dr. Dave Cornelius.

So until next time, be well, stay safe, and connect soon.

Mimi, AnaElsa, thank you so much. I'm so appreciative of your time today. These conversation will definitely make a difference in the lives of different people who are listening. So with that, peace out.

AnaElsa:

Bye-bye.

Mimi:

Bye-bye.

Kayanna:

Let's talk about it. Talk, talk, talk. Let's go deep. We all have something to share. KnolShare with Dr. Dave.